God’s Word Interprets God’s Word

ME–

When Jesus said it is better to die, what is worse?

Person 1–

What specifically are you referring to?

ME–

For one scriptural example, In my understanding of what Jesus was alluding to is the ultimate destiny of Judas has to be worse than non existence.

Person 2-

I am willing to tackle your question. First tell me the chapter and verse to which you are referring so that you and I are on the same page. (BTW, the Bible nowhere says ”it is better to die.”

ME-

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. ( literal translation 1993 Jay P Green or KJ3 2006-2010)

Matthew 18:6

But whoever causes one of these little ones believing in Me to offend, it is better for him that a millstone turned by an ass be hung on his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea. ( literal translation 1993 Jay P Green or KJ3 2006-2010)

Matthew 26:24

Indeed, the Son of man goes, as it has been written about Him. But woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed. It were good for him if that man was never born. ( literal translation 1993 Jay P Green or KJ3 2006-2010)

Person 2–

PART 2 OF 2: When humans die they are well and truly dead. No human at the moment has innate immortality (Gen. 3: 22-24).

The followers of King Jesus will be given immortality at His second coming to Earth (1 Cor. 15: 51-55).

The unrepentant will never be immortal (Jn. 3: 36) and thus cannot be sadistically tormented for all eternity.

ME

Please answer the

Part 1 question first before we

“tackle” Part 2

What is worse than dying or non existence ?

Person 2

I already answered that question. “Jesus was saying that offending “one of these little ones” carried more shame than that kind of death.”

ME

This is first time I seen your statement “”Jesus was saying that offending “one of these little ones” carried more shame than that kind of death.”

What translation are you using where

He uses ” it carries more shame”?

Person 2

Read my earlier post again, please. I explained my viewpoint there. What do you think that verse is teaching?

Me

I’m sorry, I have looked chronologically at your posts and my replies. I see nothing related to the concept of shame being explained prior. I only see Jesus saying it would be better to die than to offend or in the case of Judas; it would be better to not exist.

I see nothing related to being embarrassed or shamed

Person 2

O.K. we will leave that point and move on. What do you think that verse is teaching?

Me

Judas’ ultimate condition would be worse than never existing; which means he will be existing eternally in a not so desirable condition.

Annihilation says you go out of existence which is not compatible because Jesus said ” never had been born” not being born is the same as not existing or ultimately going out of existence.

So, annihilation isn’t compatible with what Jesus said about the ultimate condition that Judas will face. A temporary punishment has no value if you go out of existence. If you were never born or go out of existence, it is ultimately equal.

Person 2

We will get to Judas eventually (maybe) but for now let us stay with Luke 17: 2. What, in your view, is that verse teaching?

Me

Ok, the same essential point about ultimate destiny applies when causing a little one that believes in Jesus to stumble.

To die is better than his conditions after death. Going out of existence is not worse than dying.

There is no consciousness in annihilation as there is no consciousness in dying for the soul sleeper; but, once again, considering annihilation and going out of existence, it is no worse.

So, that can’t apply when Jesus said it would be worse for the offender compared to dying.

Person 2

I am willing to come over to your side. All I need is to see it in the Bible. In order to be tormented forever the lost will have to be given eternal life (immortality) at some point. The followers of King Jesus will be given eternal life (immortality) at their resurrection from the d-e-a-d. Where in the Bible does it say that the lost will be given eternal life (immortality)?

Me

Our definition of Everlasting life is going to be different. Not necessarily the word “Everlasting ” will be different; but the definition of “life”

Everlasting life is actually an endless quality of life which is received at regeneration John 3:3,5,8

John 17:3

And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent ( literal translation 1993 Jay P Green or KJ3 2006-2010)

Please notice knowing the true God and the One He sent is everlasting life. Knowledge of the true God is the characteristic of this Life. It doesn’t refer to everlasting existence

It is possible to be dead while you are still living and not have this knowledge or everlasting life.

1 Timothy 5:6

But the (one) living for self pleasure has died (while) living ( literal translation 1993 Jay P Green or KJ3 2006-2010)

Luke 9:60

But Jesus said to him, Leave the dead to bury their dead, but going out, you announce the kingdom of God. ( literal translation 1993 Jay P Green or KJ3 2006-2010)

The wicked do not have this life (Holy Spirit ) and never will just like Satan.

John 6:53

Then Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily I say unto you, unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.

If they do not have this (everlasting) life in them then they should be physically dead and gone out of existence if everlasting life means everlasting existence only for the believer

Person 2

Our definitions are different. I get mine from Gen. 2: 7, Gen. 3: 22-24, Rom. 2: 7 and 1 Corinthians 15: 52-54, among other places.

Me

The wicked are still conscious in the afterlife; otherwise Jesus’ statement makes no sense. You can be spiritually destroyed or dead and void of the Holy Spirit or everlasting life, yet be conscious for eternity.

The wicked can’t atone for their sin by annihilation; ceasing to exist.

God is eternal and has to look upon their uncovered sin for eternity.

Putting them out of existence still leaves their uncovered sin behind.

I know people try to explain away the detail in Luke 16:23; but is clear to me on what it is depicting as another witness the wicked are conscious

Luke 16:23

And being in torments in Hell, lifting up his eyes, he sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosoms. ( literal translation 1993 Jay P Green or KJ3 2006-2010)

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life. ( literal translation 1993 Jay P Green or KJ3 2006-2010)

Person 2

I have muted you.

YouTube will no longer notify me when you post.

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